Big Tex Ordnance Podcast #10 Jon Dufresne of Kinetic Consulting

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NtZtJEuZfmA

but that is when it like stuck and I was like huh what a [ __ ] why did you guys tell me

that in the first two classes but I look back at my notes for those two other classes and they're it's there it's

there but I as a student right didn't have the capacity or wasn't ready to

hear it and digest it at the same time because I just I I was already overloaded with all the other [ __ ] that

was going on

[Music] well I was fixing to say good morning to all my listeners out there but you know

we do release this at six a.m on Thursdays so good morning if you're tuning in uh in the morning or good

afternoon or good evening or you could never sleep like some people around Symposium do but we're back we're here

we're sitting down this morning and talking to John from kinetic Consulting

once again at Shooters Symposium this morning we're joined by Ike and Ian has Grace graced us finally uh every time

we've recorded an episode so far Ian's been training yeah out there hustling right on a range blasting away have you

had a good time so far absolutely we were out uh until what one last night yeah with uh John the whole Warehouse

crew plus some people from Lagrange were out there clapping some steel so it was a good great night great night it was

fun and yeah and you shot out to yeah 600 600 with Ridgeline yesterday we've

got to get with them yeah yeah yeah I think a trip to New Hampshire is definitely in our future yeah definitely

definitely let me know because I'm planning one too okay there we go okay and I want to do like that there's a

rally school right next to them oh and do that during the week right after class yes

I don't want to do that we'll go

like no I'm down I've been been trying to plan something there just to go as a

student and have fun and then go to that little rally school I think it's going to be a blasty blast yeah so we're just

marking off a whole week and we're just taking a week but let them let them know team building exercises yeah there we go

yeah it's team building that's what we'll we'll write it off as team building yeah it's a do you even know

what a write-off is the government it's a write-off you don't have to pay for the government pays for it

uh that's not no that's how that works that's that's why

we don't have accountants some accounting out there is like oh my God they're [ __ ] like not not talking

about anybody that we've interviewed here or anything but somebody talking about how they're going to expense a minigun

last and audit that's an audience that's a write-off yeah John for our viewers

and listeners out there give us the I mean you could make it a 45 minute backstory or you can make it a 10 minute

backstory or whatever but a lot of our listeners and a lot of viewers might not know who you are and

your background I've talked to you a couple times out here at Symposium before and we follow you pretty pretty

closely on the on the gram and other social media but give give our listeners the uh the backstory cool uh well uh

pretty easy uh started out I I grew up in South Florida uh it started as an EMT

down there and uh and after the first year doing that After High School I was like it's boring like I'm gonna go for

like what I've always wanted to do as a kid which is join the military and go blow things up so I found the I went

through and kind of did some research figured out what I wanted to do in the Army uh my ASVAB score was high enough

that I could just choose whatever and like that made it really easy so chose

the coolest job that I could think of and and found and went into the army with a ranger contract I spent uh five years there I

had a blast it super stupid moments and really annoying stuff that you have to do just random you know Army Shenanigans

but uh but there were really cool moments really cool people do miss some of my friends and stuff so it's cool and

then after the Army uh I got into the private security side of things and uh doing like executive protection and like

really close protection for celebrities and government officials and stuff like that like local government and I had to

move out to LA to do that and if you don't like doing that don't do that that's a terrible job so I got suckered

into it and uh and kind of like like the magic of like oh man I'll get paid really good just to hang out with like

rich people that's [ __ ] fine no you're a rich person's [ __ ] and you go

do stupid [ __ ] work and then you're at their becking call at any time of the day it's really really terrible so I had

no fulfillment with that now throughout all that time from the military into the private sector was uh

I was teaching for Frank Proctor from way of the gun at the time now it's Frank Proctor shooting and Frank is uh

one of my closest friends I I love that dude he's uh he the best way to describe him is he is an Alabama Surfer okay

necessary he's like all right group man like just let it do yeah let's do and uh

and he's just a phenomenal dude phenomenal shooter if you haven't trained with him please do but Frank uh

introduced me into competitive shooting at the time while I was in the Army and opened my eyes to like the the way that

you can blend the worlds of tactical Shooters and competitors and really make

this uh performance-based shooting that you can do uh work for you and even even

a setting that you wouldn't think so because it's all about just being more efficient and and utilizing the space

you have to work right so if you can do that you could do that in a tactical setting pretty easily taught for Frank

for a while I still do every once in a while when he needs some help but after I left that job in in California I came

out to Florida again or went back home to Florida and continued working in the security industry in various capacities

like testing security systems and and uh like essentially breaking into air

airport like small airports and stuff like that it was super fun so just testing their security to an extent it

was a lot of fun actually but at the same time it wasn't what I wanted to do and teaching is still a passion and I

was I was teaching for Aaron at that time right so started teaching for Frank and Aaron Cowan from stage Dynamics and

um and so then I got approached by a local agency a big agency by me to do a

night vision course for them and they were like hey we just need to know how to use it we got all this stuff we had

it for years and we don't know how to [ __ ] use it and I was like well that's literally what I did and I teach all the time I could I could probably

teach you a night vision class right so I went ahead through a night vision program with them and uh and they loved

it but to do that I had to have my own LLC for them to pay me so I went ahead and made a business and I only taught

for law enforcement military and stuff like that for a little bit uh through my own business until I opened it up to the

public what six years seven years ago and then uh and then it just obviously

Grew From there because my my pool of clientele could grow immensely so uh did

that um and I was teaching full-time I was working full-time for a uh for a

security firm doing all that testing and stuff like that and then I also was going to school full time for my

bachelor's degree in business so I was a busy man and then finally finished school left that job and literally took

teaching uh to a whole nother level for me and uh it's to the point where I'm

I'm home like three days a week sometimes and I'm flying in flying out but it's it's been a blast and I really

enjoy it with that I also do a lot of Consulting for agencies to help them fix their programs so if they have like a

rifle program that's from the 80s and they need like wait a minute this is for

a shotgun you know and they need some help kind of cleaning it up or fixing it or testing it I go ahead and I'll

augment a class class and then help them write the curriculum to help them make it better and then I also do a lot of

testing and evaluation for different companies for products and product development and really just try to make

things better right like try to see like where where they could take what they're trying to do and and increase it or test

it to the point that it's not viable where there's a couple companies that won't talk to me anymore because they

were like he was too mean to us like I just told you the truth man it sucked and you guys could do it better with

blah blah but they may not be willing to because they've already paid for like a mold or yeah you know something like

that so so it's sometimes a little rough dealing with peeps but it's like uh there are companies out there that are

like oh cool tell us more all right we'll change this all right what do you think now oh this sucks a little bit

okay and they just make another one and they continuously make more until they have the right product before they put

it out to the market and I like working with companies like that because they care they care enough to like fix a [ __ ]

versus like well we already you you know put too much money into it it's like yeah money is a thing but like time is

also a thing and then your reputation is even bigger when it comes to like this world because I mean look at look at

like uh Beretta and Taurus and like like Kel-Tec like cool cool ideas with some

of them but they their execution on some of the products just terrible so their reputation is like don't buy Kel Tech

bro unless you just want like a toy right like I don't know there's probably somebody out there that carries a telecast Celtic I'm sorry they're a

little foldy thingy he's pretty cool there's a little folder 22 mag is under 22 mag the one that like

the new one no they make a nine they make a nine folder yeah two two three

and they're 22 mag pistolsing [ __ ] yeah but does it

works I'm not gonna carry it you know like it might have it to do some fun

stuff with but it is it is a toy that's exactly it so um so unfortunately though but they're

not willing to make something that's reliable enough to not be a toy right and be looked at seriously

um where some of those products if they were like super reliable that'd be cool right and people could

use it like sros in schools or dudes on PSD details because they have

like really cool little products but it's all good yeah and that's that's essentially what I do and uh and I

travel around all over the country uh teaching now and um and I'm also like

I'm starting to Branch out more internationally teach some different soft units outside of the US and uh and

really start to to get a handle on on seeing how we can we can improve people as as general in general like as

Shooters and and for some of them as tacticians so it's kind of cool I'm having a lot of fun doing it it and it

looks from from following on social media and I'm if this was not you teaching the class

then I can edit this out later but didn't you do as like a Sims class in an

airport recently or something like that that you do not in an airport it was it was in a

humongous place but it wasn't an airport okay so it was it was actually a Royal Caribbean has a building in Oregon that

they only use half of it because they laid off half their employees so my buddy who like teaches their security

dudes was like yeah I have access is on like 165

000 square foot facility and I was like that sounds like too much for this you know 10 or 15 man class or whatever

we're going to get and uh he was like it's like we could just use portions of it and I actually was able to utilize

like small little smidge areas and and groups of students could work on

different things independently but at the same time and in different parts of the structure because it was so big so it's really

cool a lot of Reps for dudes and yeah it was just a big ginormous uh like I would

call it like a headquarters building for like Royal Caribbean wow and so what what did that class cover what were you

so it was a night vision CQB class so it was all building tactics indoors with no

lights and uh well I mean we take the baby steps because I have to get everybody on the same page at first yeah

um so it's a three-day class now where you do a day fully with lights on and

and we kind of like figure out what everybody's doing like we go through like how we're going to operate through the class and then uh and then from

there it's like all right we're gonna start shutting off the lights and we work with problems and I I try to bring

the complexity in because I I teach in a a method called skill stacking where we

start with little things and then we take that little thing we move it over and we start adding to it we move it

over and we add to that and it continuously adds to itself so I do the same thing in building tactics course

where like start off with this 2-3 room problem that's relatively simple really

simple for somebody that's done this stuff before and then from there it just starts adding complexity with the

different kind of intersections you're going to deal with and opposing doors and just just getting getting more

complex as you go that way that at the end of it one every day their brains are

fried you know because it's all it is is problem solving you may shoot like I don't know 10 rounds in the entire class

um in a day but your brain was just exhausted with how much problem solving

was having to be done so for me personally that's uh that's one of the the magic to that is like people don't

realize how little you'll actually shoot but how much your brain is going to be working so it's it's cool class I enjoy

shooting that one and uh and teaching it and actually taking classes like that because uh I'm an avid student so it's

non-stop for me I'm sure I mean I can I've been classes multiple times together so uh I mean yesterday before I

taught their class I was in a class what'd you take yesterday I took Harry's a little mid-class it is going on

awesome it's good stuff though it's always get a Refresh on that and if you haven't taken a med course your big

piece of [ __ ] and you gotta like fix that yeah so yeah I I know I saw it's a

good thing we didn't see that course before they actually had that course because that would have been one of those like hey dude we gotta go we're

gonna shut down the warehouse we're shutting down the warehouse everybody's going yeah everyone's gonna need to buy night vision yeah everybody needs night

vision too yeah like I would say like uh it's one of the things I've had like uh I had a buddy who owns a Chick-fil-A he

hired me just to do a med class for everybody at his store oh nice and he paid them to come in on a Sunday which

is like blasphemy oh my God right but we might know that guy too not on the Lord yeah but but he he was like he was like

he's gonna pay them to come in and then pay me to teach them how to like save their own lives that's fantastic just

recently with Gary's class yeah yeah we've filled out carry the entire Warehouse crew came for heck yeah a

couple people from yeah a couple people from the range too I actually have a question about your classes so are do

you teach any can like an average Joe jump into a CQB

class like a night vision CQB class or is that only for for law enforcement and mail so anything that's only for

military or law enforcement is either annotated okay right like hey it's Ellie Mill

um and that's not because like it's secret bro it's because they they have they're you or we're using a facility

that I'm not allowed to have civilians there because they're Facility Owners don't allow it right

um and then um anything that is like closed courses like that I don't post them on my website in the photos so like

like I have a five-day course coming up in a couple weeks for an agency and

they're like uh obviously I'm not gonna put that on the internet like because nobody can sign up for it anyways yeah

so it doesn't make sense to put it on my schedule for them um but anything on my website for the most part unless it's annotated as Ellie

Mill uh is an open enrollment class interesting Yeah just something to be aware of right and and for everybody

listening and watching is like um like if you come to one of those classes don't expect to like learn the

fundamentals of using your rifle like that's not what that class is about yeah and if if you're not there yet that's

okay like all of us have been there where we're like how do you use the safety you know like all of us have been

there it's okay to be at that level just grow right grow don't just [ __ ] skip steps and try to like you know jump up

the staircase a little bit too far and then end up skinning your [ __ ] shins right like like take the time to go up

this steps nice and easy and learn how to like actually walk before you get there and um and I get every once in a

while there's one or two guys that are like this is above my head and it's okay it's totally okay to be there and

understand where you're at but just realize like you you uh you most people

overestimate their abilities by far like all of us watch way too many movies we're like I could do that Honda roll

off that two-story building and then [ __ ] shoot that guy in the face definitely could do that no no we can't do that like I don't want to jump off a

two-store building and at all so I'm not gonna try and do it into a pool [ __ ] no right but Ian's having a hard time

getting up and getting water this morning yeah he's tired I'm tired I work

them I worked them pretty hard they didn't get a break no we do we I mean that was eight hours of like

plus training yeah yeah nice stuff all of my mags before class I had like 300

something rounds loaded before class I was just like grabbing mags and here we go get a bottle of water yeah that's the

way to do it yeah I mean that's cool though that you let there's not a lot of people that teach like open

enrollment cqp classes like that's I mean that that's hard well I think part

part of the reason uh potentially is that they don't want to um have students that don't know what

they're doing and bring them in and then they're holding up the class or anything like that but I I I cherish the

challenge to try and make some dude that has no idea what he's doing into a dude

that knows like pretty much what he's doing and then now he just needs to to work on it right like I I challenge I

love those kind of challenges because that's exciting as a teacher it's like let me see how many light bulbs I can get going you know what I mean like I'm

over there like freaking Edison like oh yeah like yeah what can I do you know and and uh and then it's also a

challenge in like the way that you speak to people right and and giving them information how how will they digest

this information and how can I project it to them to make them go ahead and be like

oh that makes sense right like if I'm talking to like somebody that you know skis right and I'm talking about like

their their footwork or what really just the balance work that they're doing right if I can equate that to the way

that I'm talking about pieing and how they have to lean it's like the skier will understand what I mean if I put it

into terms that they understand based off of scheme right the same thing if I'm talking to a boxer like and I'm

talking about anything well if I put it into more boxing terms or or equate it to something that's similar it's easier

for us to understand and that's what us as humans do right think about anybody that's ever learned a second language

they translate to their native language right to understand what they like they go back to what's familiar so we we do

that with everything right any car that you ever drove your body is trying to equate it to the one that you're used to

right and I mean that's why you know how to drive every car no matter what you just have to like feel it out for a

second you know what I mean so it's kind of cool it's just a it's just a a familiarization thing so if I can if I

understand what you do right like because beginning of the class I kind of ask everybody what they do for a living because like if they've been doing that

for a while I can start to if I understand that industry enough I can go ahead and start equating things to a

similar aspect to it so um I don't like doing just like you know

a whole class with military jargon and just you know and do an acronym [ __ ] soup and then 90 of them are like what

the [ __ ] is he talking about yeah right like it's it's easier to give it in plain speak and actually like

talk to humans like they need to be spoken to and and then go ahead and help them out with understanding things by

using that familiarization all your Doodles yeah and drawings man so so uh a

lot of people don't realize like the reason I draw a lot on the targets and I doodle and show you guys things like

that is because some people are visual Learners right like they use that as

that's their main way of learning yeah some people are auditory Learners so I could just explain it to you and then

some people have to do it right so if I show you I tell you and then I

demonstrate it and let you try it you're literally learning with all three of them and I conquer teaching every single

person no matter what flavor they are so it works out really well for teaching and uh and for me I've had really good

success with getting a lot of different people on the same page by using that method and all I have to do is just like

figure out how to like explain the information but in a drawing right or a

quick Sharpie doodle on a on a Target oh yeah if you go out to range eight this morning there's probably three or four targets that have Doodles all over the

target yeah if you've ever seen a picture of me teaching like in the Target next to me and you're like what does all that mean it looks grab one and

sell it on Instagram you should have we could sell that you could probably do it the problem is nobody will know what it

means unless they've been to claws yeah it looks like it literally looks like a Picasso and like there's letters and

numbers and plus signs and like graphs and you're like what what is he trying to dismay is this the meaning of life

yeah but you weren't there for the lecture put on that on that note like you said in an open enrollment and like

you were explaining you know we've all been to classes where even if it's pistol one that there might be a dude

that's not at pistol one there's a dude that needs to go back and set in a eight

hour NRA range they just need some one-on-one attention

really but okay I've seen I've seen some people in in a

class that like basic anything would have been better than in in that class

than where they were they didn't even fire around at uh assistance defense class remember the

guy went up and got his gun out of his bag on his own oh yeah yeah yes like whoops did the safety brief and John's

like you know don't um keep your guns in the bag until I tell you to get him out um made it very clear they said it like

multiple times then we're all down there at the line the guy comes is back there he's loading his mag and [ __ ] we're all like in front of him yeah down downrange

we're all down range he's back there loaded his gun and stuff and then he comes back and John's like bro what the [ __ ] are you doing yeah like we're all

down here and you're you're [ __ ] with your gun right there after I specifically said made it a real quick

way to identify who's gonna be able to follow instructions in the class yeah like he he was he was on the on the special side of things yeah yeah that's

all right yeah yeah but but going into that I I can see you know

having those challenges where if you are teaching a open enrollment CQB class and

a dude's having trouble you know not pointing his gun at other people at his

teammates yeah right or safety or all of those classes like you have to know how

to shoot but shooting is a very small portion of it like very very minor you have to be able to do like the fundamentals and like not have to think

about it but because you need that processing power to process because if you're having a hard time walking and

chewing bubble gum yeah well so the cool part though right like a lot of people see that as like uh like a scary part of

doing it right and they're like oh man I I hope I don't get any problem children but it's like no I I kind of not that I

want them but it's like if I get them I'm going to use it as an opportunity to like hone a little bit more of my

teaching skills all right like okay how how can I get across to this dude that

his head is obviously like three inches thick right like how do I get in there

like what kind of drill bit do I need to get in that [ __ ] right like and like figure out how to like talk to him and

get into his brain and like get him understanding what I'm talking about right like understand where where his

little frontal lobe is [ __ ] working and and if I can do that which um you know Joker right right so Joker

uh he comes to classes to the stage classes quite often he's been out here a couple times and

sorry Joker if you're watching this bud but like he he gets he he goes a little overboard sometimes right like he gets

he gets excited and and he goes way too far into the weeds of like like his

brain brings up a scenario that's not a scenario well like when he did a

citizen's response active shooter that that we have for stage Dynamics like he went way overboard like he had three

guns on him a trench coat I was like no no no no no no no no no no no that's not how you walk around in your daily life

like that's not how this works and he's like he's like come on I'm like no so so it was cool though because like some

people see that as like oh my God he's doing it again or whatever but for me I was like okay how do I get through to

him and explain to him like Joker you just got to dial back the fantasy a little bit and dial up the realism like

think about how you go to the gas station every day or something or you go to the grocery store you go buy some

groceries like what would you do or what would you or how would you address with that it's like yeah but but like if I

knew I was going to get in a fight no no no no no no we don't we don't know we're getting in a fight yet right we have no [ __ ] clue you have to use that

fantasy for me and he's like okay okay all right now like and I started getting through to him and I just have to like

you just have to sometimes guide them through what you want them to do so that you can help them get better as a

student but like if you just dismiss that person you're like ah [ __ ] problem or whatever dude go [ __ ] [ __ ]

yourself or whatever go kick rocks um what you do is you just you just missed out on opportunity as a teacher

to try and get through to somebody but you also miss out on an opportunity to make somebody better because now he's

like oh he [ __ ] hates me and then and then all of a sudden he goes and does that real that [ __ ] in real life gets

himself killed or somebody else killed like that shit's that's on you man as a teacher right because everything you

teach can get somebody killed or save somebody's life so it's like no I I need

to teach the right stuff and if I have to like back up and go back and be like oh [ __ ] like for example

um three years ago or so I changed the way that I taught cover right the way that I teach cover on the Range

I used to do it just like everybody else has done it and I switched the way I did it because

I was seeing a detriment in students that did it that way when we started putting force on Force into it right so

for example like everybody here has probably done it where you've got your Barrels in front of you on the Range

because that's what's always available and you lean out you shoot the target and you lean back in you lean out you

shoot the target you come back in well what I saw in the majority of force on force or even CQB classes when it's just

paper is dudes pieing oh they see the target they shoot it they lean back in

and you're like why'd you lean back in like you just shot it I want to see what happens like

do I need to give it more do I need to give it commands do I need to [ __ ] you know like keep pieing like I see

brain matter like what is it like what's happening and you don't have that because you just lost that real estate

by leaning back in just like you do on the Range but that's flat range Shenanigans right so I started changing

it where I I place cones at about 45 degrees and 45 degrees and I teach them

how to pie and they pie from cone to Cone and whatever's in between they work and they continue working they don't

lose it right you continue working through it so it's not a doorway and it's not CQB that I'm teaching on the

Range but it's it's the skill of doing so and it's the skill of using some form of cover when I don't know what's on the

other side and doing it the right way and hopefully giving people a better habit than to just pop out pop it pop

out and which could be detrimental yeah and so I've seen it multiple times in force on Force classes where dudes like

see a guy they shoot at him and they pop back in you're like bro you would have had the upper hand if you would have

kept working him right but instead you you left him and now he has the upper hand right you just gave him the [ __ ]

shot you fought before the real estate then you just real estate yeah dude yeah

and like I don't know about you but you look at any wars like the guys with more real estate usually win things so it was

interesting and uh and once I once I identified that like I had to make a video and throw it up on my alumni page

because whatever amount of students that are on there that I take making it taking that class prior and done cover

the old way or the I would say the the non-realistic way so so really just

changing it I filmed the video for them from different angles so they could see it and literally went through the whole

course of instruction for everybody that was on that Facebook page on my on my alumni page just to update everybody on

what I was doing now because I felt bad I was like [ __ ] like I I I'm doing a disservice I must

correct this so instead of just hiding and like being like I didn't do that you know and just hiding behind something

and just [ __ ] ignoring it that's like at a certain point you gotta like you learn more as a student now when you're

a teacher you have the um almost obligation to improve your students right constantly so that's the

way I look at it and I mean that's that's what I do personally but as a teacher that's that's how I take it

right if something has to change or it's like [ __ ] this is now I'm identifying this problem I can fix that so why not

use like all the social media shenanigans that we all have to to help dudes learn more again and then also

just update them because the amount of days that we're super grateful they're like watch on I didn't even think of that or holy [ __ ] like I've been doing

it wrong too or oh my God thanks or whatever that was coming through there that made me happy right like that that

makes me feel like okay these guys are they care about their training to the point that they just learned another new thing hopefully and aren't doing any bad

habits now or hopefully getting out of the bad habit of it so just something to think about but that's that's really like a good example

of like just taking taking ego right and like like like Chuck likes to say ego is not

your Amigo right and uh and and just throwing the [ __ ] side and [ __ ] that dude the ego doesn't help you with

anything in my opinion so like [ __ ] that dude and I'm just gonna set it aside and let people know like hey I messed up

like we all make mistakes everybody here has made a mistake it's all good and we could we could fix those kind of things

so that's that's how I see it that's something I we're trying to instill in

our young kids at home now is like hey you know we're sitting down at dinner

how was your day what are you grateful for what mistakes did you make and like instead of you have to be perfect you

have to be perfect you have to no mistakes it's like this is what I did what did you do well you know I

[ __ ] up and I ordered thirty thousand dollars worth of wrong Parts you know and then you're like that zero really

matters yeah you know but own it yeah own it okay in whatever you're doing

that way you know hey if I'm going to do this this is you know it's okay to mess

up and we know we ordered thirty thousand dollars worth of the wrong Parts but

you own it what can you do with those parts though yeah right we've got them yeah yeah we've got them but but that's

that also goes to like one of the videos I put out on YouTube uh months and months ago but it's uh my mindset when

it comes to like anything right like people think of like winning or losing or like you know the right and the wrong

and like oh I did the right thing or I did the wrong like all that [ __ ] but like sometimes like hey you win or lose

or you pass and fail but instead of looking at it that way I like to think of it as win and learn you know pass and

learn like failure is just a really good teacher that people don't pay attention to yeah all right and we don't we don't

pay attention to it because it doesn't make us feel good and if if you learn to just examine it and digest it and

dissect it a little bit so that you can learn from it it becomes one of those things that you're like oh like that's

how I could have done that better right there you know a good example um I was in a precision rifle course with modern

day sniper you in January it was cool to [ __ ] and uh like I'm a tropical man and

so like I'm wearing sandals right now like I'm a tropical man and then and I'm not used to being in the cold and then

also precision rifle is a new thing right like I've only been doing it for a couple years and uh and in the morning

on like it was like day two or something we're shooting a troop line right so it's like 600 758 something whatever

nine something out to like a thousand or eleven something and uh just going going down the line of these targets and we

all know the dope for all of them because we just did it the previous day but I go through it and I'm missing like a

weirdo right and I only get two shots per so that's that's the limit for all these targets all right and uh so I'm

missing two missing two missing two get to the last few and I get the like 1100

one and I'm like what the [ __ ] was I doing and like just sitting there like man did I did like I dialed something

incorrectly or like what happened [ __ ] my rifle was just canted like this like just a tad and it was enough

to throw me off including the wind that I was just like I couldn't figure out what the hell is going on and one of the

other students uh who's who I found out was like a really accomplished shooter by the way so it was really nice of him

but he came up and he was like Hey man so like I was watching your bubble level and it was completely off like I was

like that would have been sweet if you told me after the first shot but like I get it you know like people don't want

to like interrupt other peeps while they shoot especially when they're shooting in front of the whole class and uh and I was like you know what like thank you

like I appreciate that like that that's a great learning moment now that's something I [ __ ] pay attention to

girls every time I get into a prone position or any position really and uh even with my car being now like I try to

like really make sure that I'm I'm up and down with what I'm doing um and not candy because it'll it'll

cause those misses that you're like what is going on I felt like I was a great shot it broke really nice and I know my

crosshairs were where they were and their wing call was from the instructor so I'm like I I trust him enough to give

me a good win call so it was interesting it was very interesting to see like um just that small little thing that I

had not learned the the consequences of but instead of being like getting up and

being like [ __ ] this [ __ ] or being upset with myself and then ruining the rest of the [ __ ] day of training I was like oh all right gotta put that in

it was like one of those little things like I have a little dope card that hangs off my scope I was like level

right and wrote it on there because I wanted to make sure I I introduced that to my brain deliberately every single

time so now it's part of my habit so he learned something everywhere man and and

I think for some people like that little failure could be detrimental to their entire day because they get too

emotional [ __ ] done with it yeah they [ __ ] get in their head and they're just just yeah you're not able to absorb

anything else they may Boomerang the rifle who knows later fool I'm going home kick my dog

punch my wife yeah like okay who knows like people get upset so quickly and it's like just digestive for sex see

what what really like it's just a learning situation like I wasn't there for all the other students I was there

for me right like as a student I literally paid for me I didn't pay for everybody else to be here so like I'm

gonna get every little ounce that I can out of a class so for me personally that's that's how look at it when I'm a

student I'm I'm a student right and I'm trying to digest everything learn and have failures so that I can I can learn

from that and like it's it's like no fail no fail should be called will fail

right like you you will fail in that class and that's why I like Chuck's class so much it was it was hard man it

is not an easy class and I had a blast failing the entire yeah it's it's such a good learner open like

opens your mind to a lot of things I know you've taken it you've taken it I have not I'm hopefully gonna sit on it tomorrow I gotta talk with Chuck and see

if he's got it he's a great class yeah we'll have him back I mean yeah it's just a matter of time till we yeah we

get in we're booking them for 2023 nice yeah I know uh Josh and I on the way home last night basically had like an AAR just like talking about the class

and like our setups and like hey I didn't like the way my my rifle Max said

on my belt and I was like my reloads didn't feel natural like I want to move some stuff and and that's literally from

here to Whataburger so sitting in the Whataburger drive through line for 45 minutes oh that's a whole sense yeah it

was [ __ ] they were bad two nights ago Dude it was I was ready to heat the [ __ ] Whataburger but yeah so I mean

that's literally what we talked about the entire you know hour in the car together last night after class was just like hey what you know what's

how can we improve our setup because you know when you're doing in the night you

know doing the day is one thing but then you take away the [ __ ] light and you're like oh I can't I can't see oh no

yeah my eyeballs and it you know it was like okay yeah that's that's a good idea

like I'm gonna test that see how it works and [ __ ] change it or move it again so yeah

exactly and I think the first time and and you're talking about is is me fixing

to eat somebody no she's uh she's having a separation anxiety right now yeah where's Dad oh yeah I did it at two in

the morning last night too super sweet yeah super cute well it sucks for everybody trying to sleep I was up so

first time I met you out here Symposium probably uh the second one they had out

here I sat down and talked to you um and that's the year that you won right the competition I've got one every

year except for this one and uh but I haven't been able to have

prizes for the this uh last year and this year which they skipped my name on the that stage that I had a good score

on too yeah what a bunch of D-backs I know Andrew didn't give me any prizes but they we're no longer friends I'm

gonna steal his light though that's what stood out with when I talked to you that year was you're like oh I'm

I'm John this is what I do and I'm like all right what classes are you teaching you're like I'm not I'm out here I'm taking I'm

taking I'm taking classes I'm taking I'm taking every class I can I'm actually not going to sleep for three days I'm

taking all the classes pretty much I was like okay then excellent and so that that's

really cool that you're still actively promoting that and doing that and

learning that oh yeah on a on an almost on a daily basis like I I take 12 to 18

classes a year and like I find that being a student helps you be a teacher really well but I think a lot of

teachers are scared of being students with other students because they don't want to like be perceived as like oh my

God I don't know this no dude students love being [ __ ] students with you they love it they're like oh what are

you doing here I'm like learning full yeah like like why not the fun part is in my classes I shoot with all my

students anyways so I'm shooting with them they get to see my target they get to see whatever everything's that's happening and in my opinion like that's

that's one it's it's genuine right like as a teacher like you should be like you should show them mistakes like when I

made boo-boos you guys saw them and like it's like cool like that we human girl right like but but do you know why it

happened or do you not know and do you could you surmise what happened right based off your knowledge of dying gnostics and stuff like that like a lot

of good stuff but as a student I learn from other teachers certain ways

to teach things or like oh I like the way he explains that or like that's a terrible way of explaining that

and maybe help him you know if they're willing to like some teachers when I'm in class are like hey Duffy would you

think and like because I'll take a more critical approach to it and a lot of times like even though I give them like

this could have been way [ __ ] better dude by doing this this this as long as they take it like as you know

like good criticism and like hopefully develop themselves better like there's nothing wrong with that some guys get

upset I'm sure but it's like bro you asked me I wasn't gonna blatantly tell you but like I didn't like it right so

um yeah recently like tnbc's classes right tnbc had me out for one of their classes and

I I had a lot to say about it and what was really cool though is like they were

like all right and they just they re redid their entire course load that they offer from the 101

class all the way to like what they I think they they call it armed professional now or something else they I think they changed the name too but

they've changed the curriculum and made it better because of my notes and me sitting down like this with them at

dinner and being like well according to my notes right this was [ __ ] dumb

this could have been better right this could have been more important you guys could explain this I had like six students after class asked me about all

these things that you guys could have gone over and they only asked me because they knew who the [ __ ] I was to an extent and like which that was another

one where I was sitting at the table and this dude looks over and he's like are you Duffy I'm like yeah man that's

what it says on my mags and he's like what are you doing here I'm like flirting

what are you doing here learning yeah here we go we're here for the same thing buddy you know but uh but it was cool

like um you know Bill P took it really well and um and they they did a good job

right like I'm excited to see what the new curriculum looks like now and uh hopefully I'll get into that sometime

early next year but uh but I like helping my friends right like uh I've I've been one of

those dudes that I don't I don't like it like those peeps that are like no no I'm like this is my territory you know one

of those guys I'm not one of those dudes I like to share and uh and I like to think of it as like a rising tide raises

all boats so like why would I want to like succeed and not have like all the good dudes come with me and succeed also

so um so if I could help them in any way I try to you know it's it's what I try

to do with a lot of dudes so at least at least the dudes are willing all right because there's some instructors that

are like no we don't we don't do that okay all right but it's it's cool to see

like there's a lot of dudes out there that are willing to take uh advice from somebody else and like enjoy it or let

me teach portions of the class because they're like Duffy knows more than the like and and utilize me in a class that's okay I know I paid for it but

it's like but I enjoy teaching enough to stand up in front of a class and teach a portion of class even though I'm paying

to be there as a student because that's how much I like teaching it just happens like uh there's a box behind Ike on that

mantle of me teaching a class on lasers the other night to like three dudes that were over here on the couches yeah

because like I couldn't help myself I was like that's dumb no no no this is how this is how this works you know and

like try to help people out man it's why I give out bad knowledge and why why like uh what is it called gatekeeping

yeah why do you keep that [ __ ] I got no Gates I live in ungated community

I had a conversation this morning you know and and that kind of

it kind of overlaps in the territory right I mean we're out here at Symposium last weekend they had a thousand I think

1200 that's the number I heard AK owners right if you took 1200 AR owners it

would just be a giant [ __ ] Fest of people throwing stuff at each other saying my my setup's better

than your setup yeah you know like honestly it would be a a giant dick measuring contest around the place but

it's like the first the first day here everybody's mean mugging everyone yeah that's okay like you just blow

kisses at him like I do at chacho yeah yeah it'd be a lot better if we just got along yeah and and didn't get keep on

yeah Pharaoh stay in Tropic or not Tropic Thunder uh everybody love everybody what

was it uh it's uh I don't know I don't know I don't know it's a basketball movie oh yeah Woody Harrelson yeah dude

that's us how what is that movie Semi-Pro yeah yeah that's a solid view everybody just get along with everybody

everybody loves everybody it just it that's what we tell the kids I sent uh

Michaela some pictures I took of her last night because that was her first class

and she said uh it was hard you know and I said hey you know good job last night and she goes uh she just said thank you

uh it was definitely hard talk about information overload but it was a blast fantastic sounds bad right yeah yeah

this poor girl yeah her brain was probably fried she had to drive home after so yeah I saw like a hour and a

half drive home after information dump yeah no I'd sleep in the car I'm good she had to work this morning oh well

somebody has to work this morning somebody who's making her do that that guy he threw her into a low light class

it takes her until one in the morning [Laughter]

now she can school everybody at the range on low light hopefully hopefully I

mean after a good class it takes days or weeks if not more to digest information

and apply that information and I've been in classes where you go through and you're like okay I got one this one

nugget one nugget out of it all right am I going to do that again no or am I I

didn't get what I wanted out of that class so I need to go find another class to find out

what I what I need to do well you know I'll tell you what like this is something cool that I I discovered um

recently right at least in the last like four years or so and uh and it's that

I've taken almost the same class uh three or four times now right and it

took until like the third or fourth time where I actually was ready to hear a

certain portion of that class so for example like my precision rifle

um learning again because it's it's like something I'm I'm in the process of learning so it's really fun for me and

it's not my forte it's not night vision stuff it's not you know carving shooting it's not [ __ ] handgun stuff so it's

like super new and it's a different discipline and what I found is like the first class they taught wind right they

taught how to deal with wind how it works what what you could be doing and things like that and how to how to best

guess the win right because that's really what you're doing then the second class they obviously taught it again

because it was the second version of that and then the third time I heard it was in another class that they also

taught but that is when it like stuck and I was like huh son of [ __ ] why

didn't you guys tell me that in the first two classes but I look back at my notes for those two other classes and they're it's there it's there but I as a

student right didn't have the capacity or wasn't ready to hear it and digest it

at the same time because I just I I was already overloaded with all the other [ __ ] that was going on right like the

the fundamentals of my positioning or [ __ ] you know whatever it was went to tripod stuff or whatever and then now

third class in I gotta win now all right so so sometimes man like as as much as

that sounds like um like weird taking the same [ __ ] class over and over but you may not be ready to hear that

information yet or portions the information and then on the second time you're like oh yeah okay clickies

clickies are happening right Edison Edison is coming back into my brain right and then the third time you're

like oh I understand it all right and and you're you're starting to to digest this information easier because now

you've put into practice hopefully the things you learn and then now you're ready because you've subconsciously put

a lot of things into your abilities now right so where you were thinking about let's say 90 of the information trying

to trying to establish it and use it at the same time now you're thinking about only like 40 of the information and the

other 50 is now subconscious right and then and then when you get to this third class and it's like all right I'm at 10

of my capacity of actually applying things because 80 percent of that [ __ ] is already stowed right I've got that in

my back pocket pretty easy I don't have to worry about it right but there's 10 I still have to carry my hands you know

what I mean and uh and right there like you you'll gain more and more that you can you can stow away versus having to

carry that [ __ ] and be able to apply it without thinking which is really cool

um or on just more subconscious method just like you did when you were driving like when we we all first started

driving and uh and you had to think about all the thingies to driving right like literally everything [ __ ] how

much gas [ __ ] turns ease when do I do the blinker is it down to go left or is it down to go right

and then sorry and then um and then from there it's like over time

though [ __ ] I get into a different car every three to four days and like just

fix my seat fix the mirrors and just go and I'm fine and I could drive subconsciously while I'm eating on the

phone and maybe even texting somebody while I'm talking to somebody else on the phone right like I'm doing a ton of different things versus just driving

which 15 year old John could not [ __ ] do like no way I couldn't even have the

radio on at the time like if you have to turn the radio down so you can you know see better see better yeah like but at the time man I couldn't

have the radio on because I had I had to use all my brain power and it's not because I was dumb I was probably Dumber

but I wasn't fully Dumber right I was just I was just encapsulated with carrying a hundred percent of driving in

my hands now driving is like I may be holding a little bit with my pinky and

like the rest of it is like I'm on the phone eating blah blah blah blah it's like when you drive home and then you get home and you don't realize you're

like how the [ __ ] did I get home yeah and you're like autopilot yeah you're like how when did

I drive but that and then and then just like knowing like after a while like how fast can I take her take a certain curve

yeah right or like working with cops hiding yeah or or even just in your neighborhood right like all of you guys

know that there's a specific like thingama Bobby that's in your way sometimes like in the neighborhood like

oh there's that that little [ __ ] pothole and I don't like going over it so I go around it real quick but I know

where it is and because I've been driving there for so long it's like I do it without thinking about that stupid

pothole especially after the first 15 times and like hitting that thing and you're like I gotta miss that next time

I'm like that didn't feel good and I may have to you know deal with that with the car later so um but you you learn from

those and you start to apply those those experiences and then like I said like eventually you're you're at the point

where you don't have to think about it anymore no more wasted brain power so in classes it's the same exact thing as

driving like that right we have some people are fully in like Kayla completely in the class 100 has to be

right everything was hard at the moment right where there were some guys in the class where they were like 40 percent

they just had to apply the new stuff but they already had a good established Baseline right so it's it's really cool

how that works and you can see it in each student as you as they shoot and there's some individual stuff that we do

so that I can literally identify like how people are shooting and that that's

important to me right as a teacher to be able to like guide people differently who needs a little bit more attention who needs a little bit more like

observation who needs a little bit more encouragement like whatever it is because that's what I'm there for is to

facilitate them learning not not facilitate them thinking that I'm awesome or something [ __ ] like that so

that that's on their end they can figure that [ __ ] out but you are awesome only only if you think so

but I want you guys to learn it right learning and having fun that's all I give [ __ ] about

so so we've asked two questions and we're at 55 minutes in all right well

see you later you're welcome now in episode two we'll continue with what happens when we do more stuff more stuff

more stuff faster and in the dark yeah oh yeah Darkness

yeah daytime stuff is weird so I do have to pee can we take a pee

break yeah we can take a pee break yeah I could do a p all right let's go pee all right and if you're watching on

YouTube Facebook and everything we'll air the second part of this episode here uh in a couple weeks we'll drop part two

uh with John and I keep on ignoring your last name how do you say your last name Ukraine Dufresne

Duffy

[Laughter] but thanks for tuning in thanks for watching this has been a knowledge bomb

if you want to talk about learning and education and self-improvement and we

really appreciate you having you on the show today and we will come in and record the second part of this episode

after a potty break so cool thank you sounds good awesome